For the Jury

[eggwards]

Maybe it's bear-run mentality. It's gotten into my brain in such a short amount of time.

Maybe there's just something to the fact that our lives aren't all about sex, but yet we're identified by our attraction more than other people.
Openness leads to the fact that attraction is there, but yet acting on it is completely up to you. You have the power.

Is it wrong that I might work sexual attraction into a model of friendship? Then again, I might not.

I find myself in the awkward spot of not necessarily defining a person by my attraction to them, but certainly creating a first impression that way. How do they look? Does that first glance cause a stirring somewhere lower? Am I a lower person for starting at that base level?

Will you judge me lower for starting there?

Comments

[fzks-cub.livejournal.com]

Of course not, that would be pretty hypocritical of me, and most people I'd think. Most people are more likely to talk to and get to know someone whom they find attractive... Hell, it's the whole principle for marketing/advertising. The key is to not stop at that level and find out if they interest you as a person, otherwise it'd just be shallow.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

True, true...but what if you might wish to take that to a new level? I think that gay men are more open to that than straight society might, and perhaps that's what scares some.

[bobaloo.livejournal.com]

Not at all! I have sparked great conversations and friendships with people I find adorable!

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I'm trying to write something about the rules of attraction and my poor sense of appropriateness, and haven't been able to do it (too inappropriate, perhaps?) and this is what I end up writing after 4 hours and being frustrated by other conversations. Maybe I should try again.

[bobaloo.livejournal.com]

I think you did just fine. Relax, tiger. Remember what i said before. Just feel the vibe of people before you pounce.

[loganbeary.livejournal.com]

Personally I try not to judge anyone on anything except on whether they're good for me or bad for me.

I mean, what's in it for me to judge you?

Do whatever is right for you, whatever that might be.

Now, if you rub my back and work your way lower I judge that's good for me. :o)

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Anytime Logan, anytime.

[dakoopst.livejournal.com]

Will you judge me lower for starting there?
No lower than I judge myself.

I think gay culture (hell, ALL culture) suffers from this a great deal of the time, but in different expressions.

There's something interesting about the interaction between societal expectation that most of a person's closest friends will be of the same gender and the fact that that's the gender one finds sexually attractive. It certainly complicates things; straight men often have the same sex-leaning difficulties in friendships with women, but without the gender-expectation thing.

I would say just be aware of it, and fight it if you feel it's out of hand. Other than that, don't spend too much time beating yourself; as long as you can still become friends with someone you don't find attractive, or you can see through someone's physical attraction to see the asshole they really are, you're doing fine.

BTW..I wrote a post on this exact topic a while back, but it would take me a while to locate it...and I'm notoriously lazy. ;)

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Yes, I recall you making mention of this, and I think there was another breakout of "why are bears always trying to sleep around with each other" then, too. I guess the debate will never be over.

My problem is, I never seem to be able to pick up on the signals, when it the right time, when it's the wrong time, and when to just stay the hell away, so I never know what's appropriate, so I either make the wrong move, and leave with my tail between my legs, or don't make a move and feel frustrated.

And to think I spent 4 hours last night trying to write that - and couldn't - and there it is in a few minutes of a response. Sheesh.

[alphaschnitz.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't judge you lower for starting there. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody wants to be friends with the prettiest girl in class.

The larger concern for me in the situation you describe is this. Are you sure you're not harboring secret booty-call hopes that may or may not come to fruition with PotentialNewFriend^tm. If the secret hopes don't come true, you could find yourself disappointed and frustrated with the friendship. I've been on both sides of the "one person wants 'friends', the other wants 'friends with benefits'" equation, and neither side is fun.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

It's not that I want everyone, but there are times when I do get in a vibe about someone - I guess I would call it conquest mode. It's happened a few moree times that I'd like to admit, and it can be a large source of frustration. A couple of times I've grown our of it, but I can already name a couple of instances where the friendship is awkward because of it.

I haven't been on the other end as much, but yeah, that's awkward as well.

[redcub.livejournal.com]

Watch closely how the "normal" folks do it. What you are describing is a pattern based on society at large. "Bird of a feather flock together." With gay men and bears, well we want to hang with gay men and bears. Of course there is going to be some overlap in the lust department.

Sounds like you are doing the same process of the elimination. Why are you bonking yourself for reflex action?

[profundojoe.livejournal.com]

This is exactly what i was about to say. Straight people are defined by their lust just as much as we are. Look at any advertising campaign based on hot models or watch tv for 5 minutes. Ugly people don't live in sitcom houses. If they do, they're an archetype for some negative part of culture. You're normal for wanting to be friends with people you find attractive. NORMAL. Say it with me.....I AM NORMAL.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Yes, yes, but then there's the thing about wanting to take it to the next level. Gay men are, in my perception, much more likely to have friends with benefits than their straight counterparts.

It's knowing when it's appropriate to act, or not to act on that initial attraction that seems to be a problem to me.

[buddachewie.livejournal.com]

Meh... at least it sounds like your doing it to other gay men... I have the problem of falling for the straight ones... I still have good friendships and all, and I've just come to realize the eye candy is nice, and the friendship is even better.

Of course, the straight friends don't make it easy to resist when the volunteer for full body massages either :-P

Best of luck, and so long as you've got room for change past your first impression, there shouldn't be anything wrong with your current method.

[fzks-cub.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know exactly what ya mean on this one... One of my best friends is a really hot straight cub, and I love him because he's who he is, but him being really woofy helps and hurts at the same time.

It's especially difficult when he *knows* he's hot to me, and taunts me incessantly. At least there's the eye candy... *sigh*

[ubercub.livejournal.com]

Don't worry Cubby; we'll get in his pants some day ;)

[buddachewie.livejournal.com]

well... that's easily fought backable... you just tuant him back about how gorgous he is... usually shuts them down pretty quickly... and if not, well, then it's just foreplay.

[fzks-cub.livejournal.com]

Hmm... Good idea... I think he's coming over tonight, I'll have to try that, thanks. ;)

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Oh, Bother.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Well, that's one thing that's good, I've left most of the straight boys behind. not to say that I don't see them at the mall or something, but I don't have a lot of straight friends that I see on a regular basis anymore, and out of that John and Hans are the attractive onese...we've dealt with those issues many years ago. thankfully.

They are happily married, and I was both of their best men - it was like giving them away, in a way.

[evilcreamsicle.livejournal.com]

ok, I'm sure we're all very familiar with the quote, 'Let he without sin cast the first stone?' Well, I'd be willing to wager that there aren't too many who could qualify for that. Mike - I wouldn't worry or fret over that. We're guys. We look. Not saying that we all do it, but even so, that shouldn't cause someone to look down on you. And if they do, well, that's their problem, not yours.

(And to continue my tirade of stupid quotes...) Regarding first impressions, there's the whole, 'can't judge a book by it's cover' thing, well...here's my take. It's the cover that gets you to read the book. That's why there are illustrators. Same thing is with human relationship/attraction. If you're in a bar, and there's an uber attractive guy standing across from you giving you a wink and a nod, that's definitely going to garner more attention than the not so uber attractive guy. I know that sounds really shallow, but unfortunately, I think it's true. ( I guess that's why I like the online thing - I can't help but feel it gives you a better chance to read the book, without seeing the cover. And personally, although the cover may be nice and shiny, it's the content that REALLY matters) Ok, I'm rambling.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

I hear you, and in this community there's been a lot of covers that it's been worth opening.

[evilcreamsicle.livejournal.com]

Couldn't agree with you more!

[jeffdintexas.livejournal.com]

I am a little confused about what I am to judge you... but, I typically have to sample the buffet before I can judge the goods.

[eggwards.livejournal.com]

Well, you know, not everyone works on the same rules.

[jeffdintexas.livejournal.com]

I am way behind on this.. sorry.. but I don't think that it's a bad thing that you consider people sexually as you're getting to know them as friends. We are sexual beings and much of how we relate is influenced by our sexuality.

Personally I am disheartened when someone tends to base their friendship on whether or not they "get any" or if the person is someone they'd fuck. I won't judge anyone who lives by that philosophy, but it is disappointing when someone would turn down a potentially good friendship based on whether or not and/or how well they themselves are physically gratified.

We all have a right to choose the values that determine how we interact. I am in no place to judge anyone and won't. But if your entire decision on whether or not to befriend someone is based on whether you "get off" as a result, then I think you're set up to miss a great deal in life.

[eskiebear.livejournal.com]

You have to start somewhere. Friendships and associations are founded on many levels. Wit, compassion, intensity and appearance.

"Will you judge me lower for starting there?"

No... I can only judge myself. I found myself guilty of need and I sentence myself to large doses of hugs.

[ubercub.livejournal.com]

Hi...*pokes head in*

I've been trying to make friends and get to know people in the bear community; it's especially hard when you're shy, like me, but like someone said, you've gotta start somewhere. It just seems easier to start with a crotch grab sometimes than with a good conversation...though I welcome both. Maybe that's what LJ is good for...

[jeffdintexas.livejournal.com]

MAN I don't know why such cute friendly guys like yourself talk about having a struggle. I've met you and from what I have seen you are surrounded by some very good fellas who all seem to really like you quite a lot... THAT is the "bear community"... so you're "There" buddy!

[ubercub.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean, and you are right. I was mainly talking about the huge groups of hot guys who all know each other and have been friends for a long time - that's what I think may be difficult for me to plug into.

*late reply*

[garebear.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure what your bear run experience has been.

When I'm not feeling social, it's usually more of a bust... when I open up, it ends up being eight naked guys on the bed and floor with whipped cream, M&Ms, paddles, glow sticks and...

But I think your feelings are quite universal, gay or straight. We all want to know the pretty people. Many men want to screw everything, especially the pretty people. The privates do have a mind of their own and are higher in command than most men's brains.

The sexual aspect depends on the other person. I get physical with some who I consider friends...and have had physical relationships turn into friendship. I've had friends whose friendship went way beyond that... but I don't recall ever loosing a friend because of that.

Is it bad to defining a person by your attraction to them? You have to start some where.

[nightfallcub.livejournal.com]

never been to a bear run (way too shy for that), so I don't know how that is, but I do understand your mentality. I kinda use a form of that thought process.

With me, hot guys are "better" than me. They lead better lives, have more fun, are more fulfilled and happier. I think that's kinda the way you think, that's why you only want to be friends with hot guys.

It's always seemed that hot guys had more friends and better lives. heh it's seems like you have a pretty good life, and lots of friends, and a pretty good, active sex life. and yeah, you just happen to be really hot. coincidence?